In this episode, Ellen Barnes Pfiffner provides valuable insight into setting up strategy for and organizing efficient advisory boards. Through collaborations across the organization with key departments and individuals, you will have greater success in building a sustainable and effective briefing program.
Guest Thought Leader:
Ellen Barnes Pfiffner
Consultant, EBP Business Consulting
Ellen is the principal of EBP Business Consulting. A highly-skilled business executive with telecom experience spanning sales, marketing, organizational development and corporate training. Extensive experience in developing and implementing strategic programs in support of company initiatives.
Hello and welcome to the C X App Live, an interview style podcast addressing topics, trends and tips for creating real time digital experiences in a customer. First Customer. Last World This show for briefing and meeting professionals brings you authentic and unfiltered conversations with industry experts who know howto elevate customer experience across people, teams and programs. Let's listen in Welcome everyone to our CX App Live podcast series dedicated to today's briefing professionals. I'm Darby Mason Warner, senior director of client and partner strategy with the Sea. Except I'm thrilled to be interviewing thought leaders across our industry who can share their experiences and ideas to help all of us improve our briefing programs. Today. Our discussion focus is on advisory board and advisory strategies. We all strive to continually improve our programs and further enhance our customers experience. In many cases, there's resource is that air needed to reach circles, and we need support to do it. Advisory boards advisory strategies provide valuable insights into our companies and likely have access to resource is that we may need Let's listen in to hear more about advocacy strategies we can deploy for unique organizations and programs, and today I'm so excited to be joined by Ellen Barnes Pfiffner, consultant at a BP consulting. Ellen is a management consultant with over 20 years of business experience, spanning organizational development, sales, marketing operations, customer experience and training. She advises, and coaches, individuals, teams and companies on how to achieve their goals, increased revenue and reach their fullest potential. Ellen is so well known in our briefing community and is one of the most frequent session leaders at A B P M spring conferences and fall workshop events. Most of recently, she's taken on providing a B P M core competency courses through the Webinars and I've known Ellen for more than 18 years, and we've collaborated on multiple articles, and we even co presented together at the recent fall workshops in Dallas. But most importantly, I'm honored to call her my friend. So hi, Ellen, thank you so much for joining me today and for this time to share all your expertise with our listeners.
Derby. I want thank you the opportunity to talk with you today, and this is such a great time because we just talked about on the advisory or two, because he strategies together in October
right? Yeah. And so that's why I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. And I just wanted to start by asking you if you could briefly share about how your journey led you to the briefing industry.
Come on, Drink that Need to be a professional. Briefly. Yes. You know, um, I think we've all heard the comment. None of us wanted to grow up with the briefing professionals. Exactly. Here we still I I actually worked in the education and Training department what is now Verizon, and realize that if I was going to continue my career and I really want to understand how business it's done and why we went into marketing and I was the health care market manager and frequently a presenter in our briefing program and had an opportunity to lead our 12 center program. And after leaving Verizon, I really thought about What is it I want to do when I grow up and have a real affection for briefing professionals and briefing programs? So here I am Thin shell. 15 years of consulting and briefing programs?
Absolutely. And I I just I love that story, and I'm so thrilled that we've had all this time together and just shared so many experiences in so many places with a B P M conferences and you know, the joint efforts that we have. So I'm just thrilled. And so I'm really excited to get started. I'm gonna go through our questions that we've talked about today that have to do with advisory board and advocacy strategies. So let's dive in. So just my first question would be What do you believe is the most important benefit of briefing programs having an advocacy strategy?
Well, you know, I think it's really a necessity because choir, too, the past 10 15 years, the way business got done in organizations with two silos and with expertise in specific area, and that was key to product development, operational excellence and sales. But today we live in a very different world. We were globally, um, and I don't think it's more caring anyplace else but in the briefing program, because we have t. C. Our colleagues navigating across all departments to source information by resource is, and they have to support, um, a lot of different agendas. So they have to create agendas that work customized. They have to develop customer experience. His address, the needs of really contemplates customer requirements and think that an advocacy strategy. It's an opportunity for building some success because they think it helps build these collaborations across the whole organization and work with in terms of us, including sales, marketing, product management, product marketing, research and other invested departments or even individuals. So while it's is central that briefing programs work across silos to create this energy needed to deliver really impactful customer experiences, many companies air not structured for these kind of collaborations,
right? That's the
turns up. I'm really delighted, Darby, that we have the time to discuss the best practices for formal and informal advocacy strategies. Exactly. Just heat briefing programs have better support. More resource is and really much more success because improved collaboration through these advocacy strategies.
Yeah, exactly, agree. And I think you're so, so correct and how business has changed in the way that we need to work globally and across the silos as you mentioned. And so, you know, being able to bring in this kind of idea and have our briefing audience really understand how are the different ways that they can go about looking at bringing an advocate strategy toe life. You know what? It may be an advisory board, maybe these other kinds of tools. And I know we're gonna touch on today, so I think that's great. And with that, you know, let's let's start with looking out, What would a briefing program have to take into account when they are maybe going to decide on implementing a formal advise? A reward? I know they're keeping to that.
You know, there is a really good point. I think, really the most important things to think about your company and think about the culture of it. Some company you conspire cultures will support a formal briefing program. Yet I could be in other locations, and I hear we're not having any more meetings. No more formal committees. We don't need any more civil standing meetings, right? Oh, I think that we need to consider a culture. Also, if you are going to go with a more formal strategy, you don't have to call in your BIS re bored making being so it could be the Briefing Program committee. Whatever really fits culturally, contractually in your company, I think, is what's most important and I know that your advocacy strategy is working. When I'm walking through your briefing program and we walk through leave the seven, we go to the baby or employee cafeteria, and I hear other people talking about briefing focus that aren't part of the staff. And then I know that the word is out.
Absolutely. Yeah, And I think the idea of using different terms that's gonna fit with your company. I know. For me and Xilinx, you know, that was the case. I had a different framework for it. So it wasn't a formal advisory board, it was more of a advisory committee, is what I used for it, and so that it was great. And there was aspects of that where it was kind of some folks can come and some folks can go. So I know we're gonna touch on how we kind of look at who's on the board as well or on that group. But yeah, yeah, and it it had to change. The culture had to change for me to be able to approach that because I didn't have it for a number of years, and then it kind of became something that I thought was really possible. And then we went for it and it did work, so it was great. So with that in mind, what kind of key attributes or things should we be looking for in those board members or committee members that we want to bring into that group? And, more importantly, how can we make sure they're going to attend the meetings and be involved? Or your thoughts on that?
Well, it there's a really very tough question. What I would kind of suggest is that we really think about two different dimensions. I think about before we invite anyone who want to think about what it is we want to do and what we want to have accomplished. And then we need people who have knowledge or experience that can really help us with that. And so I really try to look at their experience in the company. The reputation in the company, um maybe, are they Do they use a briefing program with a familiar with it right over There isn't another briefing programs or in previous up jobs that they feel they've actually worked with other briefing programs, maybe as a professional, bring customers in. So I want somebody who has some experience and business knowledge, um, and understands what our company or your company's strategy is that it personal attributes that they need to have. And that is I want to look for somebody who wants to mention people who cares? People. You know, sometimes they can be the busiest people. But then disease people have time to meet with you, huh? What people who are both well organized. I'll also want something more that are kind of the creative type. We're gonna ask you the questions that I've never thought of or bring appointed you that's never been considered before and out to big. Still, the salespeople in because they have really high energy, usually and they well can represent the point of view of the customers were going to the people that are in the meetings, um, in terms of, um, getting people to attend meetings regularly. It's a challenge, but I think it goes back to good meeting management. I think you have to explain with the charter and the purposes of your committee board, um, I think you need to set meetings two, maybe three times. Your maximum maybe and, you know, get him a few minutes early. That's okay, too, right? You need to have a really compelling agenda, but I think you need to mix it up. Now. They may be remote and virtual briefings with the Webinars or video and maybe in person. But I think you wanna work into guests, you know, brainstorming. Bringing in some guest speakers for actually bring in a customer who's willing to share his own point of view about their experience. Maybe bring in some a navy and professional or someone who has an experience about it, or you take everybody out and go visit other freaking programs. Yeah, an opportunity to learn together. Um, if it's an in person, I think providing the lunch. But I think what's important, you make it informative and you make it fun. Then, along with this good meeting, man, we have a compelling agenda. We've sent out information and data like, kind of the one day kind of stuff in advance so they could be prepared if the brief amateur director wants to participate fully, hadn't have a meeting facilitated, um, and then you put out a summary of the meeting afterwards. Now, that isn't the only time you talk or communicate with your group of the advocates. I really believe that you could go ahead and keep them updated. I want going on, make sure they have a link to your dashboard. I also wouldn't hesitate that if you have a particular challenge come up that you contact the couple that you think would have to really key information to share and have a conversation with them. I also think that it's important to rotate the membership right. If we went in a dress one set of calendars, we pretty well know that there's gonna be another seven challenges next year. And we may be different expertise, different skills or different viewpoints, right? And the one thing we really don't want to do is we waste anyone's time. If they're saying, why am I here? Then we know that we're not doing your job or they're not the right person,
right? Exactly. All great points. I I'm gonna go back and highlight some of what you were saying about who the folks are. I love that idea of bringing in folks who are mentors, and you actually can you care about the program and they wanna, you know, give Cem, you know, really meaningful guidance and support. You're talking about creative types and sales types, and for me and mine, we also I had to bring in some technical folks and the folks that are in the product, Sure. Technical marketing groups, you know, for demonstrations and, you know, looking at road maps for that, you know, that was one of the primary goals of mine. But then, yeah, like you said, you do want to rotate some folks off. And when I had a different goal of what we needed to accomplish, kind of we did well with demos and things. We want to move over and talk about campaign branding that I brought someone else on. So I think that's really great. And I also love the idea of the communication with them. In between, I think is really key. So you're not just having a meeting on informants later? You meet with, um and you know, you might give him an update, but it be great to stay in touch in between, I think is wonderful. Um, all great points,
if I could add Yeah, as boards. I've seen are people of different levels. So Tom's time to think we're willing to work with people in different, over different levels. And I used to say they couldn't leave their titles at the door with Lynn and because some people have no firsthand knowledge face to face with the customer. But how that gets combined with an executive who has a line of sight into the corporate initiatives and maybe some budget authority really get the whole picture.
Yeah. No, I love that. I think that's really great. And I think we we all should strive for that and kind of have this table of equality, if you will, because everybody's point of view is valid and everybody brings something different to the table. So that's really cool. And, you know, I know that you have had some examples and worked with folks on advisory boards, you know, is there a key program that you would want to highlight who's done a really great job with that,
You know, garbage. I think people off even this if we didn't you maybe an advisory boiled merit is now, yes, but work, That's how we first started working together was on the board and you know it's been in existence for over 25 years. It currently has 11 members, and they represent the membership of a BPL and then re with the genes of our profession. And they really recommend the fact that just recently they just changed their asses characteristics that we're not really with us characteristics. It's kind of the standards of successful TV programs on some people, the road rail, and that gets review frequently. And this current board has just revised it, and they have, ah, formal meeting twice a year. One is for 1/2 a day, and the other's a day. They're professionally facilitated. There's minutes taken its many things. We just talked about his best practices. But again, during the other times of the year, when she challenges come up, the A B P M leadership turns that board to get some insight and advice. No thing about advisory board, and perhaps some people have served on advisory boards in their church, in others in their communities and schools, or maybe in their owners association. It's not that we have legal responsibility, we're really directing, rip their toe, advise and suggest right, and that's a BP of advisory board does. I've often open Alma dance with just a company, and so get it recorded in France, and there was a software company for travel of industry, and what I really liked about it was how flex a little. They have made their briefing of advisory board, and I think it's a really good example for all of us what they were getting ready to build the Southern Planets center. They have a set of people that included facilities. They had people that was bringing me in finance. They had people who are experts, a customer experience. They even included some of the other departments that were gonna be cold, located around that space that was going to be under for a year. I get it. I didn't apologize and no one the most the noise was going to be there. So they have people. They have mark on, then joined later because they went ahead. They built and playing the opening in the center. Once they did that in the initial success of the center, they noticed a drop in music, so they advisory board and changed up membership to see what they could do to get really strategic. Used to making sure that they're the right customers and the right seat at the right time. Right. And, um, we came up with the model that showed tremendous civilization. They all said that they had built. Then they decided to find a way to integrate a briefing program with other customer facing programs across the organization. So again, that was a different type of board and needed different members, different knowledge, different skills and experiences. But then the whole company went through reorganizations many of us have been through and mergers and acquisitions. And so they didn't have a board because, resolutely a direction that we needed to take the program until the company reformed and was able to, um, get leadership to communicate with the new initiatives were and they realized at that point, they need to renovate the facility. So again, visitation.
So they kind of start over. They went full circle. Yeah, yeah. Changing and flexing in. Okay, let's go back and bring folks in again who are gonna be interested in helping rebuild a center, right? Okay.
You know, people ask me. Well, how often should you change people out Yeah. I don't, like change out more than half of the board. Okay, 15 plus members. I know Agnew start out with 25 or 26. Sometimes people can do
Oh, my gosh.
A core group of 12 15 people at a meeting because I create enough energy in such.
Oh, that's a good point. To bring up my mind was much smaller. It was like 8 to 10 people, Max. But you're right. Some of these larger organizations they're pulling in get 15 20 people. So it's a very different animal in those sites. Size organizations. Wow. Okay, well, yeah, great points. Thank you so much. Great examples. I loved hearing the Amadeus the coming back around again, you know, and how they had utilized that has a really strong tool to get what they needed and accomplish the next goal that they had. So So that's great about advisory boards and then one about if we look at some of the advocacy strategies because I know is you were saying, you know, culturally, sometimes advisory board or committee doesn't really work, and it doesn't fit with what's going on with company a particular time. So let's look at some of the other ever see strategies and some of the benefits of those Okay,
you know, um, way have fucked out. Is that the difference between programs said Thrive and programs that struggle is the amount of executive support.
So really, advocacy is about getting executive support as well as other stakeholders support across the organization. And what is it? Strategies? It's very, very successful. Is called Exactly on deck. I got two examples. If I make sure them
Oh, yeah, please.
One of them is Schneider Electric. Their North American headquarters is in Boston and the world headquarters is just outside Paris. And for a number of reasons, they ended up having their Schneider electric center in the middle off. Where? Our field, right? Just outside of ST Louis. Yeah, you know, Missouri and victim a terrific job. It's a very large tether and one of the reasons why the centers there They have existing facility and they have subject matter experts there. Right way didn't have executive. So what should electric has done is a schedule ahead, and they look with their calendar and they let executives noble for France and North America when particular customers are coming in and they have an executive who comes and spends the week it is. And that gets into the high stakeholder, high risk, high event, what we call platinum breathing. That executive who actually spend the whole day in that briefing. Wow, old event. You know, there's might be shorter event. They'll be there, at least to do the opening. Maybe have lunch for that. If it's a silver grand, maybe they do the opening of the meeting over Thank them for coming in. And so the point. Right? And if it's a Bronson idea, just to come in and shake hands but makes the first connection, you know, if you think about it, why do customers want to come for breathing? They want to come for a couple reasons. One is they want access to your thought leadership, right? Something that they want Is there going to know? Your executives know we're human beings at the end of the day, and it's about relationships, absolutely uncontrollable relationships. So they want the connection. So I think the Schneider Electric Exactly deck has been great, and what's happened is after somebody has spent a week there, they feel like they really I got out of their office. They've been with the salespeople. They were customers. They face to face answering questions they have. They have please back generally know what? We've been doing this for four years that they have feet back to the program and they go back ago. We need more of this. We need more than that. So there's a lot of funding, and it's been quite a success story. Now. BMC Software in Houston is the most winning program and of a baby p m. Four more words than any other company, and they're at a, um, they have one building. They have a center there and the center's co located with their executives. And they have signed an executive the exact on Black every day. And that executive is in alcohol in briefly settled a needing customers and varying the amount of time they participate. Much starting electric. So I think so, model than executive. There is a very alternative strategy. The other thing is what we need to look at our companies. What other kind of executive to customer dialogue going everything about Customer boards Advisory board night in the briefing program because that's a tremendous opportunity for customers to come in. And maybe executives who would normally be other breathing centers. They have them come in. And when they see that, we're partnering with them on their advisory. Their revised three boards very able to see how give us insights and become advocates for program. Also a lot of, um, programs that have, um, executive contact programs, right? If you have an executive contact program, when your executive this hosting your meeting with whatever company state been assigned to and usually these air the, you know, top
top to Europe. Yeah,
yeah, why not have them in the center, too? And again, your executives, when they used to be in part of the briefing program, the briefing centers, they're aware of it. They become more aware of what our needs are and have insensitive and also around recommending us and supporting us in under meetings.
Absolutely. And we had something similar to that which was an executive sponsorship program, and it worked really well because they had a vested interest in whoever they had been assigned to a CZ, their their company and, you know, not just for briefings, but they would go and visit those customers, you know, out of their own sites. But when they were in the center, they had all that knowledge and they were really involved and invested in. It s oh, that was a great way to make sure that they were helping us also, to maybe get some of those resource is or get some of those things that we needed because they were bringing their, you know, special customer in. So it was a great voice for us to have a swell. And so also I wanted Thio. Just make sure there's something that you have created, and I want to make sure we have time to cover that today. It's a model that you created. That's the advocacy journey. And I think it's really important that we be able to share this with our audience today. Um, can we go ahead and and shift and make sure that we're able to cover that? Maybe could talk us through? Sure it's about Okay, great.
You know, very a lot of times. And I'm doing consulting on veg parking briefing programs. People say, Well, how do I know if I really of advocacy then I go well, and I want to come up with a way to explain it. So if everyone, including you, could just picture the triangle, I think many of us informally with massive Mobley Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where we start talking about food, water, shoulder the necessities and then safety and then security and been a sense of belonging. And then we are going to self actualized. But what's important is that there's some steps another base for you have to start and move your way up. So if I were to talk about pleasing programs and how I know I have Abacha's, Do you know how they get advocacy? I have the fine l's of building briefing advocacy.
so I think a lot of executives and other stakeholders in our companies lack now about what we do in the briefing program. All they see is Kidron coming in and the empty trays going out and they think we give parties. Don't you have to do some things to build awareness in our briefing programs? Um, I know that when I managed the Horizon programme, we were Jason couple locations with training centers. So on Friday mornings at 9 a.m. Is also ended in or customers. Of course, we would open up for tours and people. The Simon heads. We have mobs of people. We controlled it. But we have people come in and take a tour and get a chance to see what the briefing center does. And people left saying I didn't know what was in general, right? A lot were proud about what our company doesn't. What we did, you know, you could have a badge holders that have a breeding program on it makes sure on your e mails that you have a briefing program signature. Um, I know T. C. S Remember the V p. M. When you sign on your computer in the morning, there was a message from the briefing program to great things with sales portals and logs and new sweaters that we can utilize to keep the briefing program top of minds. We have to build awareness is number one. So once we we've addressed his lack of knowledge, we need to give they have the word about the program and we weren't need to get them like the program and to love the program. Well, what are. Some of the things that we can do is that we can invite some of our executives to be on our port or on our external website, inviting customers to come from the center. We can turn to the new hires and looked the part of the orientation to our company. Is the BNC breathing centering to take the tour? We could reach out to you and re sources say when you're trying to recruit real talent and trying to explain your company is that I was different than anybody else in the industry. Bring him to the briefing center and let us show through the, um, program. A CZ. Well, it's the showcase we have. So you could recruit the very best for company,
right? That's a great difference. Sales for sure differentiator. Yeah, and thought of that like like the recruiting process. That's that's a new one. I love that idea,
you know, invite some people to participate who wouldn't normally participate. You have an insurance company coming in. You might invite your H R V P to give the opening overview of the company because India and insurance all the time, even automobile company coming and have the Fleet Director command into the overview or join you for lunch. Um, you want to provide your discussion leaders who are coming in to support the briefing program with packages and checklist and training because you want to really get them to be fans. Wanna learn about the program you want? Like the program? I developed a love for the briefing program, and when that happens, then they're gonna become fanatic. Somebody a loyal and you weaken. Survey them. You know, it'll Estrada. In Mexico, they haven't in recognition program. It was very little money, but they invite the stakeholders, including discussion leaders who really helped support the program this year. They have it about three o'clock in the afternoon, so they supplied breakfast for lunch for dinner or anything. And they have popcorns and sodas and they have awards that they get of the bigness. That acceptance there. Yes, thank and recognize all the different people it takes really keep a briefing program ready and really responsive that excellence so together brainstorm in your organization. How can you build? I can engage, can create advocacy. You gotta build that awareness. You gotta make them prefer the briefing program over maybe other venues. You want to make a passionate about printing program because they feel part of it and make a briefing program. And Alex
Absolutely. I love all those ideas. Yeah, those were great. Um, and I like the Leicester idea, you know, in the afternoon there, but having the execs there to see the other folks, the discussion leaders and the other S amis that are being rewarded and recognized. So everyone kind of gets a warm fuzzy there. And that's the perfect way to advocate for the program in the way that you are being as briefing program professionals the way we are being within our companies. And obviously that, you know, radiates out to how we're treating our customers and how we're taking care of them when they're coming into. There's There's just this thing that I love and what why We're also fanatical about what we do with breathing programs, and it's this caring for list. Like you said, we are human beings within these companies, and we're still in need of that connection and being able to support each other in that and, you know, recognize and lift everyone up. Then all that's gonna do is make everything better for you know, the customers are coming in, and in the end, that's good for a company. So I just love all that, Um, you know, And on that note, I just wanted to see what what would be some of the additional advice that you might want to give to the different types of programs that are represented in our audience here. Any other key points or pointers? There's been lots of great ideas in here,
but any other final thoughts that you might
have for them,
I think that we have to have a formal way that you build advocacy. What I talk about is I want to talk about baby 13 um, objectives of the briefing program. What is it we do to influence tales, close sales, increase the amount of sale, shorten the sales cycle, build relationships, retained business, um, create branding experience, customer experience? Um, how we really can, um, haven't are why and be part of the fabric of how the customer does or how our company does business with customers. But I think we do is we take that list and when I'm trying to create an advocacy strategy, whether it's a former advisory board or individuals. I like to think about who's one of my biggest fans. This mistake hold. But I want to go to him or her, and we have to recognize how busy, whether their sales, whether the executives, the product management, how busy people are. They have a really long attention span for us. So I think to look at my list and pick the three points or so that I know they're really resonate with them and the job they have to do. And I like to go in and talk with them about those three points, and if they bring up other things that we have time for, that's great. But then I end that be and say, You know, I really thank you for your support And if I'm going to get others to support the briefing program, who else should I talk to and ask them and ask him, Maybe work for their top of mine concerns? And what did they value in their position and their view of the organization? And then sometimes they'll even have paved the way for May and they calls appointments and then I go in and again I look at my West and I think for this person now, what are the top frame that make it very different than the last conversation? And I repeat that process and thank them for their support and has some Who else should I speak to and try to create this conversation so that, um, I know how to really effectively and dress, particularly executives, because, you know, that's the hardest audience to address because they're so rushed in there, so shortsighted,
Absolutely. And having that information about what are their key care about's where the things that they're most interested in because we know you know a CFO is gonna have different care about's than a C i o or even your real estate department. And you know, the other groups that we had touched on in our session being able to know. But what I love about this is this is a step by step that our briefing program folks can do where you do you identify you. You know the ones who love you already, maybe, and you start there and then you ask them Who should you talk to next? where you're getting their inputs and thereby in, and it's their idea. And then you're moving it forward and you just keep that chain going. But in the process, you're building this wake of advocacy basically, and I just I love that approach. I think that's wonderful. We also think about how we do that. Make that master list of who all those folks are and how we go approach them. So So, Alan, thank you so much. This has just been wonderful. There's so many great ideas in here. I know our audience is gonna just, you know, listen over and over again for getting more of those nuggets that we shared, and I just hope that you have. I enjoyed the time here and any other final thoughts for us,
you know, for some time and thank you to our. We have enjoyed heavier chat, conversation and report, which will be getting to talk about African strategies. You know, one audience we haven't talked about and that's her staff that they are included in communicated and they know the point and they feel the pride. Um, because there are also people who can represent our organization. It isn't all done through the manager of the director, right? Certainly in closing, you know, um what Our youngest daughter was eight years old. I bought the refreshments, but I hosted a future that are breaking center at Verizon. And my daughter explained to her friends that Oh, we're going to the horizon. Disney World Hurry. The only face in our company. It's like no other space in her face and our preparations that really tell the story. You could feel the brand and the immersed in what it's like to be a customer and employee of the organs.
Absolutely. Oh, I love that. I love that analogy. That's so great. Well, thank you again, Ellen. I really, really enjoyed talking with you today, and I so appreciate your time.
Thank you, darling.
All right, and thank you to everyone listening Today. You can listen to this and other podcasts in our Siri's by visiting www the cx app dot com. And if you have any thoughts or questions about today's podcast or any ideas for future briefing industry podcast topics that you'd like to see covered here in our Siri's, the best way to reach me is by email and that would be Darby at the sea except dot com. So thank you so much for your time today and we'll talk to you soon. This has been a production of the sea X App. Live your partner in digital customer experience programmes. For more insights, tips and trends, visit us at the c x app dot com where the experience is everything.